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geigertube

Iraq

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This is from http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ (which is currently slammed and the server dying a slow, painful death)

 

Anyway, this is an anonymous blogger. So, she could be a greasy liberal left coast hipster rather than a iraqi woman. So whether you want to believe it or not is up to you. And, yes, there is good happening in Iraq as well, and there are secure areas. It just looks like Baghdad is not one of them. (Just to spare that discussion, and save us all some grief and boredom.)

 

What I found interesting was the account of the Ministry of Defense telling Iraqis to not obey the police unless they are accompanied by coalition forces.

 

 

April 3, 2006 | BAGHDAD, Iraq -- I sat late last night switching between Iraqi channels (the half dozen or so I sometimes try to watch). It's a late-night tradition for me when there's electricity, to see what the Iraqi channels are showing. Generally speaking, there still isn't a truly "neutral" Iraqi channel. The most popular ones are backed and funded by the different political parties currently vying for power. This became particularly apparent during the period directly before the elections.

 

I was trying to decide between a report on bird flu on one channel, a montage of bits and pieces from various latmiyas [shiite processions in which the faithful flog themselves] on another channel and an Egyptian soap opera on a third channel. I paused on the Sharqiya channel, which many Iraqis consider to be a reasonably toned channel (and which during the elections showed its support for Allawi in particular). I was reading the little scrolling news headlines on the bottom of the page. The usual -- mortar fire on an area in Baghdad, an American soldier killed here, another one wounded there, 12 Iraqi corpses found in an area in Baghdad, etc. Suddenly, one of them caught my attention and I sat up straight on the sofa, wondering if I had read it correctly.

 

E. was sitting at the other end of the living room, taking apart a radio he later wouldn't be able to put back together. I called him over with the words, "Come here and read this -- I'm sure I misunderstood…" He stood in front of the television and watched the words about corpses and Americans and puppets scroll by and when the news item I was watching for appeared, I jumped up and pointed. E. and I read it in silence and E. looked as confused as I was feeling.

 

The line said:

 

وزارة الدفاع تدعو المواطنين الى عدم الانصياع لاوامر دوريات الجيش والشرطة الليلية اذا لم تكن برفقة قوات التحاالعاملة في تلك المنطقة

 

The translation: "The Ministry of Defense requests that civilians do not comply with the orders of the army or police on nightly patrols unless they are accompanied by coalition forces working in that area."

 

That's how messed up the country is at this point.

 

We switched to another channel, the "Baghdad" channel (allied with Muhsin Abdul Hameed and his group), and they had the same news item, but instead of the general "coalition forces" they had "American coalition forces." We checked two other channels. Iraqiya (pro-Dawa) didn't mention it and Forat (pro-SCIRI) also didn't have it on its news ticker.

 

We discussed it today as it was repeated on another channel.

 

"So what does it mean?" my cousin's wife asked as we sat gathered at lunch.

 

"It means if they come at night and want to raid the house, we don't have to let them in," I answered.

 

"They're not exactly asking your permission," E. pointed out. "They break the door down and take people away -- or have you forgotten?"

 

"Well, according to the Ministry of Defense, we can shoot at them, right? It's trespassing -- they can be considered burglars or abductors," I replied.

 

The cousin shook his head, "If your family is inside the house, you're not going to shoot at them. They come in groups, remember? They come armed and in large groups -- shooting at them or resisting them would endanger people inside of the house."

 

"Besides that, when they first attack, how can you be sure they don't have Americans with them?" E. asked.

 

We sat drinking tea, mulling over the possibilities. It confirmed what has been obvious to Iraqis since the beginning -- the Iraqi security forces are actually militias allied to religious and political parties.

 

But it also brings to light other worrisome issues. The situation is so bad on the security front that the top two ministries in charge of protecting Iraqi civilians cannot trust each other. The Ministry of Defense can't even trust its own personnel, unless they are "accompanied by American coalition forces."

 

It really is difficult to understand what is happening lately. We hear about talks between Americans and Iran over security in Iraq, and then the American ambassador in Iraq accuses Iran of funding militias inside of the country. Today there are claims that Americans killed between 20 and 30 men from Sadr's militia in an attack on a husseiniya [shiite religious centers named after the imam Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet Mohammed] yesterday. The Americans are claiming that responsibility for the attack should be placed on Iraqi security forces (the same security forces they are constantly commending).

 

All of this directly contradicts claims by Bush and other American politicians that Iraqi troops and security forces are in control of the situation. Or maybe they are in control -- just not in a good way.

 

They've been finding corpses all over Baghdad for weeks now -- and it's always the same: holes drilled in the head, multiple shots or strangulation, like the victims were hanged. Execution, militia style. Many of the people were taken from their homes by security forces -- police or special army brigades. Some of them were rounded up from mosques.

 

A few days ago we went to pick up one of my female cousins from college. Her college happens to be quite close to the local morgue. E., our cousin L., and I all sat in the car, which, due to traffic, we parked slightly farther away from the college to wait for our other cousin. I looked over at the commotion near the morgue.

 

There were dozens of people -- mostly men -- standing around in a bleak group. Some of them smoked cigarettes, others leaned on cars or pickup trucks. Their expressions varied -- grief, horror, resignation. On some faces, there was an anxious look of combined dread and anticipation. It's a very specific look, one you will find only outside the Baghdad morgue. The eyes are wide and bloodshot, as if searching for something, the brow is furrowed, the jaw is set and the mouth is a thin frown. It's a look that tells you they are walking into the morgue, where the bodies lay in rows, and that they pray they do not find what they are looking for.

 

The cousin sighed heavily and told us to open a couple of windows and lock the doors -- he was going to check the morgue. A month before, his wife's uncle had been taken away from a mosque during prayer -- they've yet to find him. Every two days, someone from the family goes to the morgue to see if his body was brought in. "Pray I don't find him ... or rather ... I just -- we hate the uncertainty." My cousin sighed heavily and got out of the car. I said a silent prayer as he crossed the street and disappeared into the crowd.

 

E. and I waited patiently for H., who was still inside the college, and for L., who was in the morgue. The minutes stretched and E. and I sat silently -- small talk seeming almost blasphemous under the circumstances. L. came out first. I watched him tensely and found myself chewing away at my lower lip, "Did he find him? Inshalla he didn't find him…" I said to no one in particular. As he got closer to the car, he shook his head. His face was immobile and grim, but behind the grim expression, we could see relief. "He's not there. Hamdulilah [Thank God]."

 

"Hamdulilah." E. and I repeated the words in unison.

 

We all looked back at the morgue. Most of the cars had simple, narrow wooden coffins on top of them, in anticipation of the son or daughter or brother. One frenzied woman in a black abaya was struggling to make her way inside, two relatives holding her back. A third man was reaching up to untie the coffin tied to the top of their car.

 

"See that woman -- they found her son. I saw them identifying him. A bullet to the head." The woman continued to struggle, her legs suddenly buckling under her, her wails filling the afternoon, and although it was surprisingly warm that day, I pulled at my sleeves, trying to cover my suddenly cold fingers.

 

We continued to watch the various scenes of grief, anger, frustration and, every once in a while, an almost tangible relief as someone left the morgue having not found what they dreaded most to find -- eyes watery from the smell, the step slightly lighter than when they went in, having been given a temporary reprieve from the worry of claiming a loved one from the morgue.

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Well, thank God we did not nuke them because clearly they have their shit together and are ready to contribute to the world for the first time since the massive gap between when the West discovered oil and Saladin was big-time.

 

 

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Well, thank God we did not nuke them because clearly they have their shit together and are ready to contribute to the world for the first time since the massive gap between when the West discovered oil and Saladin was big-time.

 

I felt the same way about Yugoslavia post-Tito, but no one listened. The tactical use of nuclear weapons as social "reset" buttons is really underrated.

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I felt the same way about Yugoslavia post-Tito, but no one listened. The tactical use of nuclear weapons as social "reset" buttons is really underrated.

 

 

???

 

Well, Bush I owe a lot to.

  • 1 allowing me to see that my view of people and particularly of Americans was so fucking off base patehetic does not begin to describe it.
  • 2 allowing me to understand that there are people who think using nuclear weapons is a GOOD thing.
  • 3 allowing me to find honest to god pacifiists.
Fuck bush up the ass. Give me the red or is it the blue pill - fuck it, i'll take both.

 

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So sad, yet so true. After studying Islam I think both the Sunni and Shiite sects are corruptions... and not in a good way. I regard Christianity as corrupted but it's corruptions tend towards the religion itself (Jesus being more than a human) and any excessive compassion really isn't the worst way for something to be corrupted.

 

But the corruption of Islam is far worse, barring except perhaps Sufi Islam. Anyway, the problem I have with Sunni/Shiite Islam is that is corrupted towards evil and intolerance, which is not what the Qur'an itself is about (please don't reply to this with an out of context Surah). Even the "strong", "agreed upon" Hadith contradict the Qur'an, other hadith, and historical fact. The Qur'an itself has no contradictions once chronology is accounted for.

 

And the problem lies in when this corruption is carried into the form of a government with no separation between church and state. This allows for the suppression of any material contarary to that particular sect of Islam. Authoritarianism based not on the Qur'an, but on hadith and culture takes hold.

 

And that I think is why the muslim countries are living in the dark ages (relatively) still. They took something that was reasonable and clear enough to begin with (the Qur'an) and added so much unverifiable bullshit to it they were left with ignorant repression, hate and evil.

 

I don't really think that even wahaabianist muslims are "evil" on an individual level, but the system they follow and implemented on a national scale becomes that. And the ones I've met can't see past this. They choose to resolve the contradictions between the hadith and Qur'an not by realizing the contradiction and falling back to the Qur'an but instead by removing the perception of contradiction.

 

Much as is the case with Christianity and evolution.

 

It pains me to see them going through so much of this type of shit, not only in Iraq but due to Israel's actions now, on an individual innocent level. But there's a reason why things have gotten this point, and I believe it is because the religion has become corrupted into oppressive theocracies.

 

I don't think nukes are going to change that. I think eventually there will be a Martin Luther who does and the change will be very bloody and then very gradual. But only when freed from the corruption of the current state of affairs will Islam enter any sort of golden age again, imo.

 

"If We are to annihilate any community, We allow the carefree to rule it, they thus commit vast corruption therein. Then it deserves the retribution, and We annihilate it completely." (Qur'an 17:16)

"When they thus disregard the message given to them, we open for them the gates of everything. Then, just as they rejoice in what was given to them, we punish them suddenly; they become utterly stunned." (6:44)

"They disbelieved, followed their opinions, and adhered to their old traditions." (54:3)

“Arrogance in the earth and the evil scheme. And the evil scheme does not afflict except its people, so are they waiting for the primitives’ law? You will not find for God's law a replacement, and you will not find for God's law an alteration.” (35:43)

“So woe to those who write scripture with their own hands then say: "This is from God" to accept with it a small gain. So woe to them from what their hands wrote, and woe to them from what they reaped.” (2:79)

“… Indeed God does not change the condition of a nation unless they change what is in their selves, and if God willed harm to a nation, there is no retraction of it, and other than Him, for them there is no guardian” (13:11)

“And like that We allowed the bigger criminals in every community to scheme in it, and they do not scheme except with themselves while unaware” (6:123)

“And if they are told: ‘Do not make evil in the land,’ they Say: ‘But we are the reformers!’ No, they are the evildoers, but they do not perceive.” (2:11-12)

“…And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.” (5:44)

"We have decreed that the believers will be victorious." (30:47)

"When they are told, "Follow what GOD has revealed herein," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?. The example of those who reject is that of one who repeats what he hears of sounds and calls, without understanding. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand." (2:170-171)

"Shall I seek other than GOD as a judge, when He revealed this book fully detailed? (6:114)

"This (Quran) is the utterance of an honorable messenger. It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe. Nor is it the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed. A revelation from the Lord of the universe. had he ever uttered any other religious utterances (attributed to us), we would have punished him severely, then we would have stopped the revelation to him. None of you could have protected him against us." (69:40-47)

 

Yes, I'm a quotewhore, and yes, I do think the Qur'an itself owns them.

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But there's a reason why things have gotten this point, and I believe it is because the religion has become corrupted into oppressive theocracies.

 

So you are saying that western interference with that region, carving borders, etc..eventually led to the corruption of the religion, or just one day they woke up and hey, it was just like that with no "cause."

 

At one time, the Arab was known as the most trustworthy of all. Like the indian, Like the Arab ....

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So you are saying that western interference with that region, carving borders, etc..eventually led to the corruption of the religion, or just one day they woke up and hey, it was just like that with no "cause."

 

At one time, the Arab was known as the most trustworthy of all. Like the indian, Like the Arab ....

 

No, I believe it was corrupted much sooner. The Hadith that were written and practices that devleoped around Islam that contradict the Qur'an are echoes of Arab paganism. The Shia were a pretty early split and were heavily influenced by politics. Sufi seems to be influenced by both, and also by Hinduism and Buddhism later when the Sufis expanded to that area.

 

What the west did crippled the region economically but the course of empires post-Qur'an took their toll as well.

 

This is relevant to the regional countries as I believe it oppresses the population and slows economic, social, and military progress.

 

I think the current incarnations of Islam can substantially increase the standard of living in Africa, but I think there will have to be substantial changes to improve beyond where the Middle East is now.

 

Israel, dare I say, does things right, and is an economic superpower where its neighbors are extremely poor. Rather than learning from this example, however justified Israel's presence may be, they continue to follow a rather sad path that ultimately undermines their countries and people.

 

I fully expect to see Iraq dissolve into civil war with the Iranian backed Shia prevailing and the Kurds/Sunni getting wiped out. I think its only future is a dark one.

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???

 

Well, Bush I owe a lot to.

  • 1 allowing me to see that my view of people and particularly of Americans was so fucking off base patehetic does not begin to describe it.
  • 2 allowing me to understand that there are people who think using nuclear weapons is a GOOD thing.
  • 3 allowing me to find honest to god pacifiists.
Fuck bush up the ass. Give me the red or is it the blue pill - fuck it, i'll take both.

 

 

The "Nukes as social reset buttons" thing was a joke.

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The "Nukes as social reset buttons" thing was a joke.

 

 

Currently I am in NC in a little not so sleepy place called Sneads Ferry. It's on the South side of Camp Le June (the largest marine base in the U.S.) and about 3 hours from Brag. Over the last 10 or so years I visit this area at least annually sometimes more.

 

The flight is different than in years past. It is quite common on that last leg of the trip for the plane to be full of Marine types - young, trim, well mannered, fit and military minded. That's not the difference. Since I've been traveling here, that's typical. The difference is ..now you see a much larger number of people lacking legs, arms and eyes.

 

We went out to eat at the Riverside Cafe - basically the only real eatery (other than fast food crap) - the people you see here - sit a table away from -- are marines and marine families. You look at these people and some have been to war and some are going. You see thier children and you know some of them will not have fathers. You see thier wives and thier husbands and you just have quiet thoughts unto yourself. And while you despise the war effort and while you think these people are just fucking ignorant to engage themselves in the war, you cannot not feel sorry for them, thier families, thier plight altogether.

 

I didn't get the joke. I also didn't think it was funny when Bush looked under his desk for WMD. I stand accused of lacking a sense of humor and not just here. Sorry. IT is difficult for me to maintain a sense of humor.

 

MY brother in law, ex-iranian - his back still covered in thick scars from his torture (In the 25+ years he's been in our family, he has never taken his shirt off or talked about it - my sister tells us about it and showed us pictures. I don't think I've ever meet in my life a more upstanding individual) from the regime of "the shaw of Iran" whose over throw resulted in American Hostages being taken. He, I and my brother and his "religous right" and NSA entrenched family watch the news and our perspectives could not be different.

 

Someone cracks a joke about the death and the dying and they just don't quite understand what it means to know someone personally who has experienced torture and whose family members were murdered at the hands of American political puppets..

 

Anyway, sorry people, didn't mean to get serious on you..it's just that i am pretty serious and since 9-11 have had to fake humor ...

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Israel, dare I say, does things right, and is an economic superpower where its neighbors are extremely poor. Rather than learning from this example, however justified Israel's presence may be, they continue to follow a rather sad path that ultimately undermines their countries and people.

 

 

 

The example being what? hijacking US policy? Would you suggest that without US $$ Isreal would be anything at all?

 

As always I ask for my own edification - I want someone to give me a better answer than I have. In the area of Isreal's econ..I have no real understanding, I'm just wondering what American items has a "made in isreal" tag on it?

 

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The example being what? hijacking US policy? Would you suggest that without US $$ Isreal would be anything at all?

 

The west created Israel, yes.

 

As always I ask for my own edification - I want someone to give me a better answer than I have. In the area of Isreal's econ..I have no real understanding, I'm just wondering what American items has a "made in isreal" tag on it?

 

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

 

Compare it to any neighboring Muslim nation.

 

UZIs and Desert Eagles are made in Israel ;)

 

The point isn't whether or not Israel should exist, whether or not Israel has too much influence, or whatever else. The point is they are successful, and those around them are not. And it's not just merely due to US foreign aid, or usury.

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The west created Israel, yes.

 

 

Not a full or complete answer, at least not a factually complete answer..

 

The US gives Isreal quite a lot of money. Compare these amounts to any other country the US gives money to and again I invite you to answer the question ... "Would you suggest that without US $$ Isreal would be anything at all?"

 

 

 

Link highlighted above is duplicated (same site) here as well : http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

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https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

 

Compare it to any neighboring Muslim nation.

 

UZIs and Desert Eagles are made in Israel ;)

 

The point isn't whether or not Israel should exist, whether or not Israel has too much influence, or whatever else. The point is they are successful, and those around them are not. And it's not just merely due to US foreign aid, or usury.

 

Just to make it clear, and I'm pretty sure it and you are, but nevertheless...

 

It's your view that a country would be successful as long as they have an economy that does what economies are supposed to do - everything ..and I mean everything..else be damned..?

 

I say all this..for clarification..because you didn't just put it out there that Isreal had a good or better economy - you stated that they did things right. I don't know what right is, but I'm learning what you mean by it.

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Just to make it clear, and I'm pretty sure it and you are, but Whatnevertheless...

 

It's your view that a country would be successful as long as they have an economy that does what economies are supposed to do - everything ..and I mean everything..else be damned..?

 

I say all this..for clarification..because you didn't just put it out there that Isreal had a good or better economy - you stated that they did things right. I don't know what right is, but I'm learning what you mean by it.

 

How about this: "Without the west's support, Israel would not have been created in its current form." And yes, I know we give them a fuckton of money. The World Factbook notes their foreign aid.

 

What Israel does right, imo, is not have compulsion of religion nor be excessively repressive to its citizens, but have strong enough laws following the natural order of things (or "God's law" if you prefer) to have a stable society. I think their strong economy follows as a result of this.

 

I oppose the excessive foreign aid we give Israel, and think their actions are too harsh a lot of times. But I think without a free, strong society at its base Israel's muslim neighbors will not enjoy the same level of prosperity. And I think they could without violating the Qur'an. But it is the hadith that keeps their progress shackled.

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How about this: "Without the west's support, Israel would not have been created in its current form." And yes, I know we give them a fuckton of money. The World Factbook notes their foreign aid.

 

What Israel does right, imo, is not have compulsion of religion nor be excessively repressive to its citizens, but have strong enough laws following the natural order of things (or "God's law" if you prefer) to have a stable society. I think their strong economy follows as a result of this.

 

I oppose the excessive foreign aid we give Israel, and think their actions are too harsh a lot of times. But I think without a free, strong society at its base Israel's muslim neighbors will not enjoy the same level of prosperity. And I think they could without violating the Qur'an. But it is the hadith that keeps their progress shackled.

 

Look, as you made clear earlier none of this discussion has to do with Isreal has a right to exist etc... as my personal belief is while you term it "actions are harsh" I call it out and out terrorism. But that is a different discussion altogether.

 

How about this "Isreal would not be Isreal without the US's continued AID"

 

Your claim is that Isreal, after being created by the west, has existed on it's own by its own internal forces which somehow resulted in what you consider a strong and thriving economic circumstance..all this with the context being the other Middle East Countries.

 

I differ, having no expertise or hardly even looking into the matter. What I know is that we give that country more that a fuckload of money (they are and by far the largest beneficator of US AID..) ..

 

It appears your position is that the constant fuckload of money provided by the US might be nice, yet in no way resulted in a "stronger" more capable Isreal.

 

P.S. - Iooked around and talked with friends and family - no one seems to have an Uzzi :)

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Look, as you made clear earlier none of this discussion has to do with Isreal has a right to exist etc... as my personal belief is while you term it "actions are harsh" I call it out and out terrorism. But that is a different discussion altogether.

 

How about this "Isreal would not be Isreal without the US's continued AID"

 

Your claim is that Isreal, after being created by the west, has existed on it's own by its own internal forces which somehow resulted in what you consider a strong and thriving economic circumstance..all this with the context being the other Middle East Countries.

 

I differ, having no expertise or hardly even looking into the matter. What I know is that we give that country more that a fuckload of money (they are and by far the largest beneficator of US AID..) ..

 

It appears your position is that the constant fuckload of money provided by the US might be nice, yet in no way resulted in a "stronger" more capable Isreal.

 

P.S. - Iooked around and talked with friends and family - no one seems to have an Uzzi :)

 

The CIA factbook notes Israel's GDP was $114.3b in 2005. The foreign aid to Israel is estimated by opponents to be about $90b worst case since 1949 to date.

 

The CIA factbook again lists Israeli's sole source of foreign aid was about $662 million in 2003 from the US. While I think this is unnecessary and excessive, I fail to see how foreign aid of 0.5% of their GDP can be the foundation of their economy nor the explanation alone for the economic differences in that geographic region.

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"If We are to annihilate any community, We allow the carefree to rule it, they thus commit vast corruption therein. Then it deserves the retribution, and We annihilate it completely." (Qur'an 17:16)

"When they thus disregard the message given to them, we open for them the gates of everything. Then, just as they rejoice in what was given to them, we punish them suddenly; they become utterly stunned." (6:44)

"They disbelieved, followed their opinions, and adhered to their old traditions." (54:3)

“Arrogance in the earth and the evil scheme. And the evil scheme does not afflict except its people, so are they waiting for the primitives’ law? You will not find for God's law a replacement, and you will not find for God's law an alteration.” (35:43)

“So woe to those who write scripture with their own hands then say: "This is from God" to accept with it a small gain. So woe to them from what their hands wrote, and woe to them from what they reaped.” (2:79)

“… Indeed God does not change the condition of a nation unless they change what is in their selves, and if God willed harm to a nation, there is no retraction of it, and other than Him, for them there is no guardian” (13:11)

“And like that We allowed the bigger criminals in every community to scheme in it, and they do not scheme except with themselves while unaware” (6:123)

“And if they are told: ‘Do not make evil in the land,’ they Say: ‘But we are the reformers!’ No, they are the evildoers, but they do not perceive.” (2:11-12)

“…And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.” (5:44)

"We have decreed that the believers will be victorious." (30:47)

"When they are told, "Follow what GOD has revealed herein," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?. The example of those who reject is that of one who repeats what he hears of sounds and calls, without understanding. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand." (2:170-171)

"Shall I seek other than GOD as a judge, when He revealed this book fully detailed? (6:114)

"This (Quran) is the utterance of an honorable messenger. It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe. Nor is it the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed. A revelation from the Lord of the universe. had he ever uttered any other religious utterances (attributed to us), we would have punished him severely, then we would have stopped the revelation to him. None of you could have protected him against us." (69:40-47)

 

 

* yawn *

 

IPB Image

 

 

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* yawn *

 

IPB Image

 

Ahh, another evangelical atheist. Seriously, I love you guys. The combination of contradiction and predictability always brings a smile to me face. :wub:

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Ahh, another evangelical......

 

Uh, dude, the religious quotes were from you. :wacko:

 

 

The combination of contradiction and predictability always brings a smile to me face. :wub:

 

The combination of contradiction and un-predictability always inspires substantial caution. :ph34r:

 

 

Seriously, I love you guys.

 

Seriously, I am terrified of you guys.

 

:wacko:

 

 

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Uh, dude, the religious quotes were from you. :wacko:

The combination of contradiction and un-predictability always inspires substantial caution. :ph34r:

Seriously, I am terrified of you guys.

 

:wacko:

 

Ah, your reply was exactly as I predicted. :wub: You are faithfully deterministic, indeed.

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Ahh, another evangelical atheist. Seriously, I love you guys. The combination of contradiction and predictability always brings a smile to me face. :wub:

 

Frangible..do tell..contradiction, predictability? those of us who lack ESP know not what you mean..

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Frangible..do tell..contradiction, predictability? those of us who lack ESP know not what you mean..

 

I don't know, the term "evangelical atheist" seems like the ultimate contradiction unto itself to me. Every single one I have seen active on internet messageboards, and I am not exaggerating, spends their time posting drivel like this dude's post history in some sort of Internet Warrior Atheist Jihad, never contributes anything, and behind their comments is some sort of belief anyone with any religion or spirtuality is illogical and suffering in ignorance, and yet they bust their balls to do nothing other than make snippy ad hominem attacks reflecting very deep suffering in themselves and some sort of desire to inflict suffering on others through communication to relieve this or justify a past wrong. And yet much as you can see with this guy's post history, they never do get the relief or sense of satisfaction they seek-- the underlying contradiction in their behavior being the pursuit of suffering which initiated their behavior and suffering in the first place -- the ironically willful pursuit of what they ultimately want to avoid. In my experience, they usually have a traumatic event in their childhood, not to get too Freudian, from evangelical Christians and are a little butthurt from it.

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"God speaks to me and I know what you are thinking." ~ Frangible

IPB Image

 

And I have more sciptural quotes to groundlessly annoy you with and produce suffering!

 

"Suppose an enemy has hurt you

In his own domain.

Why should you annoy yourself

And hurt your mind in your domain?

 

In tears you left your family,

They who were kind and helpful always.

So why not leave behind your enemy

And the anger that brings so much harm?

 

This anger which you embrace

Eats away at the very roots

Of all the virtues you strive to develop.

Who would be such a fool?

 

Someone else does evil deeds

And you get angry. Why?

Do you wish to copy him

And act as he does?

 

Suppose someone, to annoy,

Provokes you to do some evil act.

Why allow anger to arise and thus

Do exactly as he wants you to do?

 

If you get angry

Then maybe he will suffer, maybe not.

But by feeling anger yourself

You certainly do suffer.

 

If enemies blinded by anger

Are content to walk the path of woe,

Do you wish to follow them

By getting angry yourself?

 

If a foe provokes you

To hurt yourself by getting angry,

Let that anger subside.

Do not harm yourself needlessly. "

 

 

 

"One conceives hatred at the thought: "So-and-so has done me harm, he is doing me harm, he is going to do me harm." One conceives hatred at the thought: "So-and-so has done harm to one dear and precious to me, he is doing harm to one dear and precious to me, he is going to do harm to one dear and precious to me." One conceives hatred at the thought: "So-and-so has done good to one not dear and precious to me, is doing good to one not dear and precious to me, is going to do good to one not dear and precious to me." In this way, one is groundlessly annoyed."

 

 

 

"He abused me, he hit me,

He oppressed me, he robbed me."

Those who continue to hold such thoughts

Never still their hatred.

 

"He abused me, he hit me,

He oppressed me, he robbed me."

Those who do not continue to hold such thoughts

Soon still their hatred.

 

For in this world,

Hatred is never appeased by more hatred;

It is love that conquers hatred.

This is an eternal law. "

 

 

 

Just as water cools both good and bad,

And washes away all impurity and dust,

In the same way you should develop thoughts of love

To friend and foe alike,

And having reached perfection in love,

You will attain enlightenment.

 

 

 

The fool thinks he has won a battle

When he bullies with harsh speech,

But knowing how to be forbearing -

That makes one victorious.

 

The worse of the two

Is he who, when abused, retaliates.

One who does not retaliate

Wins a battle hard to win.

 

Knowing that the other person is angry,

One who remain mindful and calm

Acts for his own best interest

And for the other's interest, too.

 

He is a healer of both himself

And the other person also.

He is thought a fool only by those

Who do not understand the Dhamma.

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What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think? uh, here's the site in question: Middle East conflict

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