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why is there something insted of nothing

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The Universe didn't just burst into being out of thin air. And even if it did, thin air is something. And even if you say the universe burst into being out of nothing at all, still you must deal with the question of first cause. What caused something to arise out of nothing at all?

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yeah good points of course.

 

zero, one, two, three, four, they are all just numbers. Numbers individually mean nothing - they gain meaning through their relationships. They are relative to each other.

 

In the same way that numbers are abstractions that mean something to us, a meaning we create, we should see that ultimately, anything is defined relative to something else, but all 'somethings' have to have derived from nothing, since nothing has to have existed before.

 

So anything is relative, and the relationship is an emergence due to the divergence and interaction of types of nothing - an emergent state.

 

Ultimately thats still a total cop-out, but its better than nothing.

 

No pun intended.

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Reminds me of a favorite quote

 

"The universe is not merely queerer than we imagine, it is queerer than we can imagine"

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Reminds me of a favorite quote

 

"The universe is not merely queerer than we imagine, it is queerer than we can imagine"

 

Which reminds ME of one of my favorite quotes:

 

"Velik is not merely queerer than we imagine, he is queerer than we can imagine".

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Which reminds ME of one of my favorite quotes:

 

"Velik is not merely queerer than we imagine, he is queerer than we can imagine".

 

:wub::wub::wub:

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So what of "First Cause"

 

 

Its self defeating. If you say its God or whoever, then you just randomly decided that First Cause doesnt apply to god. If not, it just goes on forever.

 

Personally, I think these sort of questions are way out of our league. Might as well ask a worm as a human, with the scales we are talking about here.

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no i think these questions are answerable in very general terms.

 

It just boils down to what contains behavior and variation, and if the containment is less before a unierse, then possibilities go up. How you then link that to the observed laws, thats the really complicated part.

 

But in my view, 'something' emerges as the interaction between types of nothing. One has to think of ways things can self author. Some people say you cannot have more than one type of nothing - but thats impossible to claim with any certainty, and why is it logical to claim?

 

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I'm not asking what first cause is ie God etc. Im asking was there first cause. Was everything caused into being or was it spontaneous. I think there was first cause. A body in motion tends to stay in motion... but what caused the motion. Or is first cause an infinite loop.

Also change is the only constant in the Universe. Can nothing change? In order for a thing to change it has to be this first, then it is changed into that. If nothing can change then nothing is something, a quantifiable something that can alter or be altered.. Even a rock if viewed at the atomic level is moving. Nothing is without motion. nothing( no thing) stays the same. The universe is not infinite. It is expanding at an unimaginable rate and speed. But that energy expanding the universe will dissipate and the whole universe will collapse back upon its self, all coming back together and the whole thing will start all over again. You see whether you like it or not the discussion bends toward the spiritual realm ( I didn't say RELIGION) as we as a race evolve farther and farther, science and spirituality will begin to be one in the same. All ready science has begun to understand a unifying force. Even chaos is becoming a provable mathematical formula.

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there is no such thing as first cause. if you say nothing did create something then your implying there was a first cause. however, something has to be eternal, you cant say that the first cause needed no cause that is not logical(people often say what caused god, the creator needs a creator). If you follow this line of reasoning you re setting yourself up for an infinite regression of first causes, which by its nature makes this something impossible.

 

therefore, logically it is only satisfying to say that something is eternal and has no cause, that is the only way for anything or this something to exist.

 

using the phrase first cause implies that you need a cause and effect relationship, wiht eternal this is not so.

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there is no such thing as first cause. if you say nothing did create something then your implying there was a first cause. however, something has to be eternal, you cant say that the first cause needed no cause that is not logical(people often say what caused god, the creator needs a creator). If you follow this line of reasoning you re setting yourself up for an infinite regression of first causes, which by its nature makes this something impossible.

 

therefore, logically it is only satisfying to say that something is eternal and has no cause, that is the only way for anything or this something to exist.

 

using the phrase first cause implies that you need a cause and effect relationship, wiht eternal this is not so.

I didn't say first cause had no need to "cause" And why do you think God could not be a child of another? Things can/are infinitely small, why not infinitely big. There is first cause in every thing. every thing that exists was a thought before it existed. It is the thought that is first cause. Which means something held the thought to cause this dimensional plane. The universe is not infinite because nothing within the universe is infinite.... Speaking in physical terms only of course. Change is the only constant. The universe will change as a whole as well, it will completely collapse up on itself, as I have already explained.

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What is the universe? What contains it? It expands and collapses, thus an inside and out. What is that which is not the universe? Nothingness?

There is more to the Universe than just the physical plane. In the absence of that which is not, that which is, is not. without cold heat is not. with out darkness, light is not. But in the Spiritual realm all there is, is knowing.

 

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There is more to the Universe than just the physical plane. In the absence of that which is not, that which is, is not. without cold heat is not. with out darkness, light is not. But in the Spiritual realm all there is, is knowing.

 

What do you mean, I cant understand the argument? The "Spiritual realm" is composed of knowledge?

"There is more to the Universe than just the physical plane."

What is there? A nonphysical plane? And besides that? Or is everything somehow in a dual relationship?

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Perhaps this will help you understand the difference between the Relative plane and the spiritual plane...

 

Imagine you are in a white room, with white walls, a white floor, white ceiling, no corners. Imagine that your suspended in this space by some invisible force. You are dangling there, in mid-air. You cannot touch anything, you cannot hear anything, and all you see is whiteness. Are you big? Are you small? You cannot know, because there is nothing outside of yourself with which to compare yourself. Are you Good? Are you evil? You cannot know. Are you even here? You cannot know, because there is nothing over there.

You cannot know anything about yourself in your own experience. You can conceptualize it all you want, but you cannot experience it.

Then something happens to change all this. There appears a tiny dot on the wall. Its as if someone has come along with a fountain pen and squirted a tiny dot of ink. Nobody knows how the dot actually got there, but it doesn't matter, because the dot has saved you.

Now there is something else. There is you and there is the dot on the wall. Suddenly you can make some decisions again, you can have some experiences again. The dot is over there. That must mean you are over here. The dot is smaller than you. You are bigger than it. You are starting to define your self again- in relationship to the dot on the wall. Your relationship with the dot becomes sacred, because it has given you back to your self.

Now a kitten appears in the room. You don't know who is doing this, who is causing all this to happen, but you are grateful, because now some more decisions can be made. The kitten appears softer. But you appear smarted( at lest some of the time). It is faster. You are stronger. More things begin to appear in the room, and you begin to expand your definition of self. Then it dawns on you, Only in the presence of something else can you know yourself This something else is that which you are not. Thus, In the absence of that which you are not, that which you are... is not.

You have remembered an enormous truth, and you vow never to for get it again. You welcome every other person, place, and thing in your life with open arms. You reject none of it, because you see now that all that appears in your life is a blessing, presenting you with a greater opportunity to define who you are, and know your self as that.

Thus in the physical realm you know your self in relation to that which is around you. In the spiritual realm all is a conceptualization... all knowing, but not experiencing.

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I've heard this analogy before. imagine having a billion dollars in the bank, would it please you to know you have it but were unable to spend it.God is the perfect infinite, thus he cannot experience himself because polarity is the defining characteristic in experience. thus from the everything he created something, this finite exsistence. The world is imperfect because you can only experience imperfection not true perfection. thus, gods goal is to experience himself through the finite imperfection or our exsistence. this fits with multi-verse and evolutionary theory. the cold-hot, light-dark argument is another way to exemplify polarity. I beleive this is what DaRooster is getting at.

 

From the probably infinite the finite actuality is created.

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geigertube: Passive-aggressive??? whats the point of the PIC?

 

 

It was a lark. If it doesn't make sense to you, don't worry about it.

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"Imagine you are in a white room, with white walls, a white floor, white ceiling, no corners."

 

A round room? ok.

 

"You cannot touch anything, you cannot hear anything, and all you see is whiteness."

 

So you do know there are walls, and they are white.

 

"Are you Good? Are you evil? You cannot know."

 

Well, if you know what good and evil are, I think you might be on to something.

 

 

"Are you even here? You cannot know, because there is nothing over there."

 

So by you not being over there, you know that in relation to that space that you are here.

 

 

"You cannot know anything about yourself in your own experience. You can conceptualize it all you want, but you cannot experience it."

 

You are selfconcious, yet know nothing of yourself?

 

 

"Then something happens to change all this. There appears a tiny dot on the wall. Its as if someone has come along with a fountain pen and squirted a tiny dot of ink."

 

So you can see it? Maybe it is behind you?

 

 

"Nobody knows how the dot actually got there, but it doesn't matter, because the dot has saved you."

 

Nobody? plural? I thought there was nothing..

 

"Now there is something else. There is you and there is the dot on the wall. Suddenly you can make some decisions again, you can have some experiences again. The dot is over there. That must mean you are over here."

 

But how do you know where it is? It might not be a dot.

 

"The dot is smaller than you. You are bigger than it."

 

So you know how big the room is? Maybe the dot was a jet and your about to get fucked up.

 

"You are starting to define your self again- in relationship to the dot on the wall. Your relationship with the dot becomes sacred, because it has given you back to your self."

 

So you lost yourself? Im lost..

 

 

"Now a kitten appears in the room. You don't know who is doing this, who is causing all this to happen, but you are grateful, because now some more decisions can be made."

 

WTF, I am pissed! I dont want a kitten near me!

 

"The kitten appears softer. But you appear smarted( at lest some of the time)."

 

Soft-smart???? I dont get it.

 

" It is faster. You are stronger."

 

How do you know its faster? Im usually faster than a kitten.. Stronger?

 

"More things begin to appear in the room, and you begin to expand your definition of self. "

 

end of bad trip!

 

"Then it dawns on you, Only in the presence of something else can you know yourself This something else is that which you are not. Thus, In the absence of that which you are not, that which you are... is not."

 

Think I heard this line somewhere.. DJ Spooky, some poetry mixed into the song.

 

"You have remembered an enormous truth, and you vow never to for get it again."

 

When did I forget it?

 

"You welcome every other person, place, and thing in your life with open arms. You reject none of it, because you see now that all that appears in your life is a blessing, presenting you with a greater opportunity to define who you are, and know your self as that."

 

Yeah, a good gang rape is a blessing!

 

"Thus in the physical realm you know your self in relation to that which is around you. In the spiritual realm all is a conceptualization... all knowing, but not experiencing."

 

Real shit is real, spiritual stuff aint? But wait, I did experience a white room and suspention and self awareness... Oh, and let us not forget the kitty!

 

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"Imagine you are in a white room, with white walls, a white floor, white ceiling, no corners."

 

A round room? ok.

 

"You cannot touch anything, you cannot hear anything, and all you see is whiteness."

 

So you do know there are walls, and they are white.

 

"Are you Good? Are you evil? You cannot know."

 

Well, if you know what good and evil are, I think you might be on to something.

"Are you even here? You cannot know, because there is nothing over there."

 

So by you not being over there, you know that in relation to that space that you are here.

"You cannot know anything about yourself in your own experience. You can conceptualize it all you want, but you cannot experience it."

 

You are selfconcious, yet know nothing of yourself?

"Then something happens to change all this. There appears a tiny dot on the wall. Its as if someone has come along with a fountain pen and squirted a tiny dot of ink."

 

So you can see it? Maybe it is behind you?

"Nobody knows how the dot actually got there, but it doesn't matter, because the dot has saved you."

 

Nobody? plural? I thought there was nothing..

 

"Now there is something else. There is you and there is the dot on the wall. Suddenly you can make some decisions again, you can have some experiences again. The dot is over there. That must mean you are over here."

 

But how do you know where it is? It might not be a dot.

 

"The dot is smaller than you. You are bigger than it."

 

So you know how big the room is? Maybe the dot was a jet and your about to get fucked up.

 

"You are starting to define your self again- in relationship to the dot on the wall. Your relationship with the dot becomes sacred, because it has given you back to your self."

 

So you lost yourself? Im lost..

"Now a kitten appears in the room. You don't know who is doing this, who is causing all this to happen, but you are grateful, because now some more decisions can be made."

 

WTF, I am pissed! I dont want a kitten near me!

 

"The kitten appears softer. But you appear smarted( at lest some of the time)."

 

Soft-smart???? I dont get it.

 

" It is faster. You are stronger."

 

How do you know its faster? Im usually faster than a kitten.. Stronger?

 

"More things begin to appear in the room, and you begin to expand your definition of self. "

 

end of bad trip!

 

"Then it dawns on you, Only in the presence of something else can you know yourself This something else is that which you are not. Thus, In the absence of that which you are not, that which you are... is not."

 

Think I heard this line somewhere.. DJ Spooky, some poetry mixed into the song.

 

"You have remembered an enormous truth, and you vow never to for get it again."

 

When did I forget it?

 

"You welcome every other person, place, and thing in your life with open arms. You reject none of it, because you see now that all that appears in your life is a blessing, presenting you with a greater opportunity to define who you are, and know your self as that."

 

Yeah, a good gang rape is a blessing!

 

"Thus in the physical realm you know your self in relation to that which is around you. In the spiritual realm all is a conceptualization... all knowing, but not experiencing."

 

Real shit is real, spiritual stuff aint? But wait, I did experience a white room and suspention and self awareness... Oh, and let us not forget the kitty!

 

Sorry I should have warned against ignorant people reading that post.

I'm sure you idea of meditation is stroking your self in the mirror too...LOL

 

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Sorry I should have warned against ignorant people reading that post.

I'm sure you idea of meditation is stroking your self in the mirror too...LOL

 

If I may be frank, DaRooster, your post was really bongload philosophy. It was long and rambling and really not very interesting. Most of the philosophical talk here tends the run a little more sophisticated. (Ras, StrategOS and others come to mind. ) Not saying thats good or bad, just the way it is, and its nothing that cant be corrected. its just a matter of style and experience/education. No crime either way. I'm sure you'll address it after hanging around here and listening for a bit.

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If I may be frank, DaRooster, your post was really bongload philosophy. It was long and rambling and really not very interesting. Most of the philosophical talk here tends the run a little more sophisticated. (Ras, StrategOS and others come to mind. ) Not saying thats good or bad, just the way it is, and its nothing that cant be corrected. its just a matter of style and experience/education. No crime either way. I'm sure you'll address it after hanging around here and listening for a bit.

You can be frank or sally, be my guest.

My views are another opinion. Unlike Urban achiever's views of "I don't understand" or Negative comments.

The problem with most of your views is your dealing with the non-physical realm in this forum. There is no sophisticated/scientific studies to back up your opinions or mine. So we all are just giving shade tree opinions ..admitted or not.

 

I always find it amusing to find experts on anabolic forums that claim there expertise in an OFF forum... if your soooo sophisticated in this field, why come to a steroid board to post your great mindful thoughts? Its do to lack of self esteem to post on a true scientific forum. But, you keep these gym rats thinking your smart my friend FRANK...LOL

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You can be frank or sally, be my guest.

My views are another opinion. Unlike Urban achiever's views of "I don't understand" or Negative comments.

The problem with most of your views is your dealing with the non-physical realm in this forum. There is no sophisticated/scientific studies to back up your opinions or mine. So we all are just giving shade tree opinions ..admitted or not.

 

I always find it amusing to find experts on anabolic forums that claim there expertise in an OFF forum... if your soooo sophisticated in this field, why come to a steroid board to post your great mindful thoughts? Its do to lack of self esteem to post on a true scientific forum. But, you keep these gym rats thinking your smart my friend FRANK...LOL

 

 

Is this because people are limited to knowing a great deal about only one thing at a time?

 

I don't claim to be an expert in philosophy. (or particularly smart, for that matter) But there is the saying that you don't need to be able to lay an egg to tell when one is rotten.

 

The rest of your post shows your ignorance of the board history and the educational backgrounds of many of the people who participate in it. Spend some time digging through the post histories of the people I mentioned, and you will understand why I said what I said.

 

Best,

 

Frank

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Is this because people are limited to knowing a great deal about only one thing at a time?

 

I don't claim to be an expert in philosophy. (or particularly smart, for that matter) But there is the saying that you don't need to be able to lay an egg to tell when one is rotten.

 

The rest of your post shows your ignorance of the board history and the educational backgrounds of many of the people who participate in it. Spend some time digging through the post histories of the people I mentioned, and you will understand why I said what I said.

 

Best,

 

Frank

Whatever. I'll post my opinions as will anyone else. If you find my comments beneath you then don't reply to them. Ubanachiever likes them it gives him something to say, he has nothing else to contribute to the discussion other than picking a few of my posts apart.

And the post about the white room was not meant to be a cerebral commentary, just a simple analogy to get a point across, sorry it pushed your buttons.

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