Jump to content
Avant Labs

Recommended Posts

No.

 

 

No brain, no feeling. Once the structure of your body breaks down into dust, and are no longer organized into a being with a brain, there will be nothing left capable of experiencing feelings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then a new brain is formed, with a new awareness. An awareness that is different from the old one, because the organizational structure is new. If you replicated the previous brain, atom for atom, and preserved all the kinetic energy of all the particles, then you would reproduce the same person with the same feelings and the same awareness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of couse, that's only if you believe we came from dust. Ask yourself, " Does dust feel?", and then you'll have your answer. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Of couse, that's only if you believe we came from dust. Ask yourself, " Does dust feel?", and then you'll have your answer. ;)

And how would one know whether dust "feels"?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you replicated the previous brain, atom for atom, and preserved all the kinetic energy of all the particles, then you would reproduce the same person with the same feelings and the same awareness.

And the answer may still be .... no you would not reproduce the "same" person.

 

You would only have a damned good duplicate, but it may not be the same person.

 

There is also the theory that identity and awareness go together, which means that the awareness cannot be duplicated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And how would one know whether dust "feels"?

Exactly. Do you know if dust feels? No, but if you believe that dust feels, well then........... It's like the question, "Does God exist?" Everyone has a different opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Exactly. Do you know if dust feels? No, but if you believe that dust feels, well then........... It's like the question, "Does God exist?" Everyone has a different opinion.

I do not mean to be rude by asking this, but as people don't always reveal their gender in forums -- you are a man, correct?

 

When I read your posts, I get an odd feeling, but I don't know why.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You get an odd feeling about what? No, I am not a man...............though why that is even relevent, I haven't a clue. An odd feeling?!! Explanation please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And the answer may still be .... no you would not reproduce the "same" person.

 

You would only have a damned good duplicate, but it may not be the same person.

 

There is also the theory that identity and awareness go together, which means that the awareness cannot be duplicated.

I suppose it depends on your criteria for personal identity. To me it seems absurd to go in for a claim that involves personal identity to be anything above and beyond the interactions of the cells that make up our bodies (and most importantly our brains). So I tend to opt for a position on personal identity similar to that of David Parfit.

 

As for the "awareness" position, pending an elaboration/sophistication of that position, there seems to be simple argument against it: You are the same person before you go to bed as you are after you wake up the next day. You loose awareness while sleeping. Thus, awareness is not necessary (nor sufficient) for the continued identity of persons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I suppose it depends on your criteria for personal identity. To me it seems absurd to go in for a claim that involves personal identity to be anything above and beyond the interactions of the cells that make up our bodies (and most importantly our brains). So I tend to opt for a position on personal identity similar to that of David Parfit.

I have not read David Parfit, so I am not sure what that is.

 

 

As for the "awareness" position, pending an elaboration/sophistication of that position, there seems to be simple argument against it: You are the same person before you go to bed as you are after you wake up the next day. You loose awareness while sleeping. Thus, awareness is not necessary (nor sufficient) for the continued identity of persons.

That is one possibility. Another possibility is that awareness may be attached to a particular biological mass, and creating another biological mass may not recreate the awareness. Analogy: One can create multiple running "instances" of the same program. But one instance of the program is not the same as the other instance.

 

Your point about sleeping is interesting. One counter argument is that when one sleeps, one's awareness is not actually "lost." Rather, it gets into another state -- which one may have difficulty remembering, like dreams.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You get an odd feeling about what? No, I am not a man...............though why that is even relevent, I haven't a clue. An odd feeling?!! Explanation please.

No, it doesn't touch the topic.

 

I imagined that I read in this forum you are of male sex. But when I viewed your posts, I kept getting the "odd" feeling that you are a woman.

 

What I felt in your posts: they ooze feminine intuition. I don't have any hard fact to support that statement.

 

In any case, I did not mean to offend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Parfit would argue that:

 

1) Personal identity is indeterminate. There is no hard structuring of self-identity.

 

2) Personal identity is a continuum based on connections. Self-identity is established through sense of sameness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Parfit would argue that:

 

1) Personal identity is indeterminate. There is no hard structuring of self-identity.

 

2) Personal identity is a continuum based on connections. Self-identity is established through sense of sameness.

I probably need to do some reading before I can make worthwhile comments ... but hey that never stopped me before from putting foot in my mouth ... :ph34r:

 

It seems to me that a being has to have awareness before that being can acquire self-identity and/or self-awareness.

 

At intuitive level, it seems that for there to be awareness, there has to be something that perceives. Why is that thing which "perceives" happened to be that particular biological mass called "me"/"you"? I don't think the above definition of self-identity or personal identity answers that question, which I think has more bearing on whether one can clone one's consciousness (i.e., be conscious of two bodies at the same time).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But couldn't one argue that one has self-identity without being aware of it? Not much to say about that, just a thought. But personally, no, I don't think you would in any way be able to reproduce the same person, seeing as how when you die, you aren't coming back, and even if one believes in reincarnation, you would never come back as the same exact person, live the ssame exact life, have the same exact memories/experiences. As for self-identity, whose to say that if you did live the same exact life, that you would interpret your experiences in the same way, that you would come to the same conclusions? And in my experiences, very few people are ever truly "aware", of themselves, of their environment, of anything really. Ah, I seem to be rambling, so I'll leave it here

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I probably need to do some reading before I can make worthwhile comments ... but hey that never stopped me before from putting foot in my mouth ... :ph34r:

 

It seems to me that a being has to have awareness before that being can acquire self-identity and/or self-awareness.

 

At intuitive level, it seems that for there to be awareness, there has to be something that perceives. Why is that thing which "perceives" happened to be that particular biological mass called "me"/"you"? I don't think the above definition of self-identity or personal identity answers that question, which I think has more bearing on whether one can clone one's consciousness (i.e., be conscious of two bodies at the same time).

 

Self-consciousness arises from consciousness. Self-identity, properly understood, only evolves through difference. To be self-identical, one must be other-differentiated. This difference is precipitated by the apprehension that self and world are distinct, and that one is a self-in-the-world. To understand one's self as a subject, one must comprehend one's self as an object among other objects.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Self-consciousness arises from consciousness. Self-identity, properly understood, only evolves through difference. To be self-identical, one must be other-differentiated. This difference is precipitated by the apprehension that self and world are distinct, and that one is a self-in-the-world. To understand one's self as a subject, one must comprehend one's self as an object among other objects.

This seems to describe evolutionary process that a baby goes through as the baby grows in awareness. (Please correct me if I am wrong here).

 

I am interested in a slightly different aspect of "identity."

 

For the sake of explanation, say a tiny man sits inside a control station (in the skull of robot) and controls the robot. The tiny man sees and perceive things through the eyes and senses of the robot. The robot also has memory, which is stored in tiny little DVD's in a library inside the control center.

 

I am saying that a human body is like that robot, and that "consciousness" (or awareness) is like that tiny man. If one swapped all of the robot's DVD's (its memory) with those of another, it still wouldn't change the sense of "self" as long as the same tiny man were seated inside the robot's control station. On the other hand, if the tiny man were replaced with another tiny man, the robot would not be "same," even if all of the robot's memories were intact.

 

It seems to me, before one can even apprehend that the self and world are distinct, there has to be a "perceiver." The uniqueness of the perceiver has nothing to do with memory or learning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're assuming that the consciousness controls the human body, but doesn't consciousness come from the fact that we are human? And it's not like you could replace your own consciousness with that of another. And you're saying that consciousness controls you, when really you are the one in control of your consciousness. Some would argue that there are those without consciousness, but in reality, we all have consciousness, but many choose not to use it. And if you believe that the perciever is in fact unique, then the same person could not be re-created, because then the perciever would no longer be unique. perhaps I'm getting in over my head here..............

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You're assuming that the consciousness controls the human body, but doesn't consciousness come from the fact that we are human?

That is possible. It is also possible that consciousness is something more global or universal, and other kinds of life forms may have given birth to "consciousness." Perhaps even plants (e.g., nut, seed, rose buds) have consciouosness.

 

And it's not like you could replace your own consciousness with that of another. And you're saying that consciousness controls you, when really you are the one in control of your consciousness.

I am not sure if I am in control of my consciousness or it is the other way around. If I remember what I tend to think or dream about, I notice my little head tends to wander off in its own way. Perhaps that is related to the fact that consciousness is nothing but nerve cells unloading neurotransmitters to other cellular bodies. I don't think that is controllable.

 

For example, if I see a woman, I cannot control what colors of her clothes I perceive. Once those light rays penetrate through my eyeballs, I cannot control what specific neurons are stimulated or turned on..

 

perhaps I'm getting in over my head here..............

These threads are for expressing/showing oneself. Whatever information or truth you lay bare, that is sufficient.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Self-consciousness arises from consciousness. Self-identity, properly understood, only evolves through difference. To be self-identical, one must be other-differentiated. This difference is precipitated by the apprehension that self and world are distinct, and that one is a self-in-the-world. To understand one's self as a subject, one must comprehend one's self as an object among other objects.

 

:)

 

I wish I wasn't out of gold Hegel star-stickers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
:)

 

I wish I wasn't out of gold Hegel star-stickers.

 

You'd need gold Schelling star-stickers. It's more abgrund than urgrund.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is something I have pondered many times when I was unable to sleep for one reason or another.

 

My personal belief is that there is no "god" as portrayed in the Bible, Quran, etc., but that our universe is a tiny piece -- an "atom" per se -- of a larger structure.

 

In lieu of this, I do believe that the atoms that make you and me up will eventually be scattered when we die, and through some miraculous chain of events, can eventually be transformed into another being. However, it is hard for me to go much deeper than this because the illusion of *my* self-consciousness gets in the way of me making a sound hypothesis of why we act as if we are self-conscious. I am willing to bet that if we had an infinite amount of technology, we could reverse engineer a person's brain and make a 100% accurate guess on one would do given a certain situation. This is not self-consciousness, but rather a series of circuits that "decide" for us based on sensory cues that gives us the illusion of free-will. This "decision" should be made in the best interest of our genetic replication. Why do we go to school? To get a good job in the future and be able to a) find a mate with good genes (aka hot chick/stud) B ) make sure our offspring can do the same. Why do we buy nice cars? Same reasons. You get my point.

 

I believe that decisions that deviate from this in such cases as depression and delinquency, are because of a rapidly changing environment that frankly, some people's brains can't keep up with.

 

Anyway.. back on topic...

 

1) Are flies self-conscious? If you don't think so, pretend they were.. would we appear self-conscious to them? If I see a bear in the wild who is carefully nurturing its young, I can feel compassion and love, giving the bear the illusion of self-consciousness. When it attacks another bear, I can sense anger and perhaps jealousy. I cannot sense this in a fly, lizard, snake, or octopus; so perhaps the fact that their brains are so different than ours means that we cannot begin to understand why they do what they do. Does this make them any less self-conscious? Would a law-abiding family man say that a serial rapist is unconscious simply because he doesn't understand why he does what he does?

 

2) If I was an identical twin, or a clone, would I be self-conscious of both people? We know this is not the case, therefore it must have something to do with matter and not genetics.

 

But this is where I get confused. If it is simply matter that makes me "kevbo" and not anyone else, then is all organic matter conscious? Will I still be conscious after I die? After all, it's all matter, and when we die the atoms are still there but arranged differently. Is there *one* atom that makes me appear as being one person and one person only?

 

For argument's sake, we will assume that the CNS, specifically the brain, is where consciousness is. If I could take out my brain and place it in someone else's body, I would assume that I would still be conscious, but in another person's body. This is where it gets tricky and requires some imagination. If we were to replace pieces of my brain with someone else's and woke myself and the other person up, eventually there must be ONE piece where I would be like, "Oh shit, I am in someone else's body, with someone else's brain" How could this NOT be a single atom?

 

When we discover where this "atom" is, that my friends, will be when we become truly self-conscious.

 

edit: I guess this was the point virtualcyber was trying to make.. although he explained it much easier than I could have :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×