Jump to content
Avant Labs
Sign in to follow this  
Spook

vinager

Recommended Posts

I realize this topic has achieved a certain level of holiness on this forum...

 

Has anybody considered that adding yet another acidic supplement (acetic acid) "for health reasons" might just not be the most swell idea, especially if your diet is lacking in pH balancing alkaline fruits and vegetables?

 

In the few days that I've been active on this forum, I've seen more than a few comments about anxiety, tiredness, blah blah...symptoms associated with contemporary diets that lack adequate variety in whole food nutrients and fiber.

 

Food for thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok guya....i am new to this forum but i am a old member bb.com forum and being around for a long time etc....

 

let me share with you guys my recent experiences with apple cider vinegar...

 

i started dieting for a important modeling photo shoot 4 weeks ago at 162 lbs, 5´10´´ and 10%bf....... i started following laynes pre contest dieting advices from his beaultiful pre contest article. in the fist 2 weeks of dieting i reduced to 9% bf and 161lbs......i was really liking the diet...but 2 weeks ago i came across a study that i think it hasn´t being shown here.......and decided to start taking vineger with my carb meals... here is the study I came across:

 

"Vinegar Improves Insulin Sensitivity to a High-Carbohydrate Meal in Subjects With Insulin Resistance or Type 2 Diabetes

Carol S. Johnston, PHD, Cindy M. Kim, MS and Amanda J. Buller, MS

From the Department of Nutrition, Arizona State University, Mesa, Arizona "

 

Address correspondence to Carol S. Johnston, Department of Nutrition, Arizona State University, East Campus, 7001 E. Williams Field Rd, Mesa, AZ 85212.

 

The number of Americans with type 2 diabetes is expected to increase by 50% in the next 25 years; hence, the prevention of type 2 diabetes is an important objective. Recent large-scale trials (the Diabetes Prevention Program and STOP-NIDDM) have demonstrated that therapeutic agents used to improve insulin sensitivity in diabetes, metformin and acarbose, may also delay or prevent the onset of type 2 diabetes in high-risk populations. Interestingly, an early report showed that vinegar attenuated the glucose and insulin responses to a sucrose or starch load (1). In the present report, we assessed the effectiveness of vinegar in reducing postprandial glycemia and insulinemia in subjects with varying degrees of insulin sensitivity.

 

Our study included nondiabetic subjects who were either insulin sensitive (control subjects, n = 8) or insulin resistant (n = 11) and 10 subjects with type 2 diabetes. Subjects provided written informed consent and were not taking diabetes medications. Fasting subjects were randomly assigned to consume the vinegar (20 g apple cider vinegar, 40 g water, and 1 tsp saccharine) or placebo drink and, after a 2-min delay, the test meal, which was composed of a white bagel, butter, and orange juice (87 g total carbohydrates). The cross-over trial was conducted 1 week later. Blood samples were collected at fasting and 30 and 60 min postmeal for glucose and insulin analyses. Whole-body insulin sensitivity during the 60-min postmeal interval was estimated using a composite score (2).

 

Fasting glucose concentrations were elevated 55% in subjects with diabetes compared with the other subject groups (P < 0.01, Tukey’s post hoc test), and fasting insulin concentrations were elevated 95–115% in subjects with insulin resistance or type 2 diabetes compared with control subjects (P < 0.01). Compared with placebo, vinegar ingestion raised whole-body insulin sensitivity during the 60-min postmeal interval in insulin-resistant subjects (34%, P = 0.01, paired t test) and slightly improved this parameter in subjects with type 2 diabetes (19%, P = 0.07). Postprandial fluxes in insulin were significantly reduced by vinegar in control subjects, and postprandial fluxes in both glucose and insulin were significantly reduced in insulin-resistant subjects (Fig. 1).

 

These data indicate that vinegar can significantly improve postprandial insulin sensitivity in insulin-resistant subjects. Acetic acid has been shown to suppress disaccharidase activity (3) and to raise glucose-6-phosphate concentrations in skeletal muscle (4); thus, vinegar may possess physiological effects similar to acarbose or metformin. Further investigations to examine the efficacy of vinegar as an antidiabetic therapy are warranted."

 

I am not even close of having diebetes or anything but i though to my self....if vinegar may increase my insulin sensivity than i will need less insulin to shuttle my carbs and then i will get more lypolises......... another think that got may attention is that vinegar lowers the GI of any carbs.....so if i could further lower the GI of my whole grain natural carb sources even further i would get even a bigger fat burning effects getting my glycogen in with out much of insulin spikes.

 

So i started taking in 2tbl spoons with every carb meal with exception of PWO meal because i wanted a insulin spike at this time and lowering GI would not make sense here.

 

my results so far are impressive...did not change caloric intake neither excercicng and in this last 2 weeks i went from 9%bf to 7% bf at the same161LBS!!!!!! impressive!!!!I gained muscle at a slight caloric deficit!!! reduced about a inch in waist and legs are really vascular!!! another thing i noted is how my muscles are allways pumped and vascular all day and how everybody is saying that i look like i have 189lbs or something lol........

 

so if anything i think that apple cider vinegar has extreme nutrient partishioning propperties helping fat loss and not inhibiting like the sodium sulfate study trys to tell us.

 

another thing noted is that vinegar is a HUGE ANORETIC...at least for me....i take the vinegar right before my carb meals and at about half of eating the meal i allready feel stuffed and satied.........so i never get cravings for shitty foods anymore neither i crave refeeding ...so my refeeds are now much more controlled because i actually have to force my self to eat.....

 

so for me vinegar is working wonders and it´s probabbly the best supplement i have ever taken........I allso like to note that i got quiet a experience with AAS and i allways dieted using them......first time i am dieting with out it and í am actually getting better results!!! i know it may sound exagerates....but this just my experience with it.......

 

i think this has to do with leptin as par deus stated....i think it fools my body to think is overfeeding and thus my body just burns fat and builds muscle even at a slight caloric deficit ( my protein is way high too...50% of diet )

 

now....i don´t know...maybe its not good for bulking because of this anoretic efects but for cutting is the best supplement i have used...

 

peace guys!!!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ok guya....i am new to this forum but  i am a old member bb.com forum and being around for a long time etc....

 

293148[/snapback]

 

 

Good to see you here Dan. i think you'll enjoy the site. Get aquainted with the search button, there are tons of old threads that debate the science behind almost everything you can imagine.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
so if anything i think that apple cider vinegar has extreme nutrient partishioning propperties helping fat loss and not inhibiting like the sodium sulfate study trys to tell us.

 

 

293148[/snapback]

 

The sodium acetate studies are likely valid as there are multiple articles showing the same thing. It is more important though to look at what it all means in the big picture. Yes, it will inhibit lipolysis in the short run as the acetate is used as a fuel source. But after the acetate is gone you've experienced the repartioning effect which can be valuable for body composition if used correctly in the long term. another factor to consider is that its been shown that vinager delays gastric emptying whcih would feed into your hypothesis of the anorectant effects.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ok guya....i am new to this forum but  i am a old member bb.com forum and being around for a long time etc....

 

293148[/snapback]

 

 

Good to see you here Dan. i think you'll enjoy the site. Get aquainted with the search button, there are tons of old threads that debate the science behind almost everything you can imagine.

293162[/snapback]

yeah.. this discussion here in this topic was beautiful...i spent about 4-5 hours reading all them posts......really nice...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read just about all the vinegar discussions a while back and failed to recall any mention of a specific known mechanism. After doing other reading it appears that simply being an edible acid might be the trick in terms of the reduction in glucose spiking.

 

Edited - Originally mistated. Meant glucose spike, but stated "insulin."

 

Is that reasonable or, for the diabetic or insulin resistant, is there something more to the story?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some stuff on acetate and other short-chain fatty acids from Neobium write-ups:

"One of the primary ways that probiotic bacteria work their magic is by fermenting prebiotics and producing SCFAs (primarily acetate, butyrate, and propionate), so we are going to talk about those, and how they work.

They primarily work through two mechanisms: 1) activation of free fatty acid receptors, FFA2 and FFA3. 2) Decreasing inflammation and permeability in the gut.

SCFAs protect against obesity and insulin resistance. Butyrate and propionate induce anorectic gut hormones, while acetate does so without reducing food intake (Supplementary 1). FFAR2 deficiency results in obesity on a normal diet, whereas with overexpression, subjects remain lean, even on an obesity promoting high-fat diet. Activation of FFAR2 suppresses insulin signaling in adipocytes, which inhibits fat accumulation in adipose tissue and promotes the metabolism of lipids and glucose in other tissues such as muscle (S2).

Propionate and butyrate activate intestinal gluconeogenesis. Butyrate does so through AMPK, while propionate works through a gut-brain neural circuit involving FFAR3 (S3). Propionate is sensed in the portal vein walls via FFAR3, initiating intestinal gluconeogenesis. This glucose then triggers a signal to the brain to modulate hunger sensations and normalize whole body glucose homeostasis (S4). In a fasting state, as much as 62% of infused propionate is converted to glucose, accounting for 69% of total glucose production (S5). This is quite applicable to lower carb diets. Basically, it makes your brain think you are plenty fed with carbs/glucose, so it signals not to eat more, as well as not to produce or pump out more glucose into the blood.
SCFAs also stimulate the release of anorectic and satiey inducing peptides like GLP-1 and PYY via FFAR2/3 (S6, S7). Activation of FFAR3 by SCFAs inhibits insulin secretion and increases sympathetic outflow. This raises energy expenditure and help to protect against obesity (S8, S9). Acetate has been found to increase brown adipose tissue, UCP1, and mitochondrial biogenesis via FFAR2 (S10).

Short-chain fatty acids also improve intestinal barrier function via activation of AMPK (S11). Sodium butyrate has been specifically found to be an AMPK agonist (S12). And, butyrate increase tight junction assembly, thus improving barrier function, specifically through AMPK (S13, S14)."

http://neobium.org/product-line/suprabiotic/

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×